So I have been thinking about assault rifles a lot lately. In particular the bullets they shot. I got to wondering what the strengths and weakness of each
round was. There are several questions on those regards that I don't know the answer to so I thought I would ask every ones opinion and ask for some facts
while I was at it too. One thing I should probably clarify is that I am interested in what the rounds can do, not which platform that launches them is better.
I guess my first question is which one of these has the longest effective range? Next off which is general considered to be the best stopper. Last which one
penetrates obstacles the best. I guess those are my biggest questions.
On the following guess would any of these be right? I would guess out of these that the old 7.62x39 round probably has the best range and penetration of these
rounds due to it being a bigger bullet. On the other hand it seems like most major armies aren't using it any more. Which makes me wonder weather or not it
is all that great. When I read black hawk down many years ago lets just say I wasn't all that impressed with what it sounded like the 7.62x39 round could
do, where as before I was rather convinced it was the best assault rifle round.
The 5.56 seems to be a mixed bag, all depending on who you talk to. I have heard that it is great to I have heard it sucks. So I don't know what to think
other than it seems to matter a great deal what the bullet weight is and, what the barral length and twist rate is of the rifle shooting it. To me this seems
to make things far more complicted than they need to be.
5.45x39, on the surface seems to me to be vastly infirior to the 7.62x39 round it replaced. Then you have to ask yourself if it sucks so much why did it
replace the 7.62 round. I have heard that for some reasons the sovits felt they needed to copy us with out 5.56 round and for what ever reason they copied it
rather than sticking with the older 7.62 round. On the other hand I have heard that the 5.45 round can casuse really nasty wounds and has good stoping power
due to an air pocket in the tip that tends to make it tumble when it hits some one. So I don't know what to make of this round, especially on comparision
to the 5.56 round. From what I have gathered, 5.56 is a better stopper if it fragments, which is quite dependent on several factors. It would seem to me that
the tumbling of the 5.45, round while probably less lethal than the 5.56 when it fragments, is probably more likely to still tumble at ranges where the 5.56
round would not fragment. Is this right or wrong? If it is right it would seem to give it a slight edge over the 5.56 I would think. Then again though I would
think that the 7.62 round would be better at those ranges than either the 5.56 or 5.45. Which penetrates more the 5.45 or the 5.56? I would guess the 5.56. One
thing I have not been able to find out is weather or not all 5.45 ammo has this air pocket thing in the tip. It would seem to me that there wouldn't be
much point ot the round with out the air pocket.
Then we have the relitivly new rounds of 6.8 and 6.5. Of these two it would seem to me from what I have read that the 6.5 grendal looks better than all the
others, at least on paper. Though it also looks like it probably won't ever get to be a common round. It would seem to me that the 6.8 from what I have
read edges out the 5.56 in just about all regards. I don't know how it would compare to the 7.62x39 round though.
So opinions or even better facts on these questions would be greatly appreciated.
1 Kudos
Opnions on asault rifle rounds
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 Penguin |
Opnions on asault rifle rounds |
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Posts: 2113 (07/16/08 17:56:05) |
Which of these rounds do you think is the best? (Result)
Penguin
Doobie Doobie Doo... |
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Alma the Younger |
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Posts: 3297 (07/16/08 18:53:59) Administrator Moderator |
If there was good availablity and a competive price, I would switch to the 6.8 in a heartbeat! It is, without a doubt the best compromise out there.
Unfortunately, there is not enough production, prices are way too high and there is not good parts availablity. 419! No nation which has kept the commandments of God has ever perished, but I say to you that once freedom is lost, only blood--human blood--will win it back. Ezra Taft Benson, 1979 |
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DMGNUT |
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Posts: 901 (07/16/08 20:59:04) |
I voted for the 7.62x39 and have several delivery systems for that round, but I'm actually more partial to the
5.56/.223 (which I also have delivery systems for). In my urban environment, this round will offer more than sufficient
range. I tend to dislike the newer rounds and their delivery systems due to scarcity and extremely high prices, and you just won't find those rounds
laying around when the SHTF. I'm guessing, of the rounds mentioned, the 5.45x39 is still the least expensive on the
market, relatively speaking, but I still like the idea of the 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 (and their delivery systems) being very plentiful, and probably much more
readily available, when things go bad.
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Stubbleduck58.plainsmanscabin |
You didn't mention the 7.62X51Nato ..... | |||
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Posts: 88 (07/16/08 23:59:34) |
That round is my first choice for an assault "rifle."
But as for main battle carbines that shoot the 5.56Nato, 6.5 Grendal, 6.8 SPC, 7.62-39 and 5.45-Russian rounds I would consider the way each round was designed and the PHYSICS involved with those rounds, ultimately trumped by affordability (economics) and popularity/availability (that are key IMO to a viable logisitcs plan I hope to sustain in a SHTF scenario.). If the Grendal and 6.8 were as available and affordable as the .223Remmie, I would consider what each cartridge was designed to do - in the weapon I had for the AO I found myself. Hopefully in a SHTF I won't get stuck where I don't want to be and have to make do. For me each platform-weapon has its place (of course!), but when using the .223 it would be stupid for me to rely on a shortie M4 vs. AR15 if I was living in the desert, plains states, or canyon lands of the Rockies. My point is that I want to maximize the performance of the rounds I use without handicapping any abilities of those rounds or the weapons I have. Without trying to ellicet an argument, I want to get maximum performance from the guns I've chosen - and max velocity promotes max range and maximum terminal ability. Full-size platforms promote these things. However one thing that's always amazed me with every cartridge I've ever studied is that each one is a "bundle of compromises" when it was finally designed. And the "perfect round" will never exist IMO. I want to point out that if I lived in the concrete jungle of the city and was getting into and out of vehicles with some frequency or manuvering in narrow walkways, I'd swap out my 20in AR-upper for my 16in Bushie Dissapator upper. The M4 has been compared to a "modern-day version" of the old western .30-30 carbines. That's an easy concept and I like the analogy. Max effective range for both is 150-200yds. Very broadly, that's the "ideal" generalization of what I'm trying to say. When using the .223Rem, keep in mind the 55grn M193 Vietnam vintage round was originally designed to be fired from a 20inch weapon, and the later 62grn M885 enhanced-penetrator round was designed partly with 24inch weapons in mind. Also I love the fact that the M193 projectile tumbles and fragments if it hits its target with ample velocity. That is an incredible advanatge I'd always try to build into my choices. But to get to your questions Penguin, I'd choose the round that would maximize what you want your weapon to do - if all things were equal (affordability and availability/popularity). However all those rounds are not equal! The .223 is not only popular with M4/AR shooters, 223's also outnumber in this country all other cartridges (in the .224 or other varmint calibers) in whatever type of rifle one might consider (semi-auto, bolt, single-shot, pump, etc., etc., etc.) In a SHTF scenario, I fully believe .223 ammo would be available wherever you could find ammo stocks - not so with the Grendal or 6.8. They're too unique and not-popular. In the "perfect world," if I was equipping an AR or M4, I'd do a side-by-side comparison with the Grendal and 6.8 SPC compared to the M193 and M885 .223 rounds. At that point maybe I'd make my choice based a lot on foot-pounds of energy in accurate bullets at maximum ranges. But even in a perfect world ..... If my family or clan or "community" ALL HAD "xyz round" in abundant enough quantities for everyone to carry similar-size combat loads, with similar weapons that used similar magazines with ample resupply-caches - it would might be foolish to deviate from that trend if everyone was depending on whatever "covenant community" you'all had created. On the other hand, if the weapons everyone had was eccleptic and totally dissimilar, DO WHATEVER IS EASIEST FOR YOURSELF! These philosophies I would apply similarly to whatever shotgun/gauge I and my group were choosing, or .22 pistols and rifles, and of course whatever sidearm/handguns we needed. Something I love about the .40 and 9mm Glocks is how popular they are with law enforment and civilians across our wide country. Those Glocks could be likened to the Chevy V8's of the pistol world - and the fodder to fuel them.
Last Edited By: Stubbleduck58
07/17/08 00:12:19.
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bucaneer |
Marine Evaluation | |||
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Posts: 504 (07/17/08 06:57:48) |
It seems if I remember right the there was a link on this forum to a marine evaluation for round penetration for different penetration of objects.
I personally chose a MBR for my goto gun in a .308 round.
Last Edited By: bucaneer
07/17/08 09:30:39.
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Yakmanusp |
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Posts: 984 (07/18/08 09:04:43) |
I'd love to get my hands on the 6.8 Kramer round, but until then I'll take the .308.
For I am too fond of the stars to be affraid of the night.
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Sword of Laban |
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Posts: 1883 (07/18/08 10:30:26) Administrator |
I agree on the .308 but I believe this was about assault rifle rounds not battle rifle rounds. All of the rounds can be effective. I have seen a lot about the
energy of the 7.62X39 and would be comfortable with that round in an assault rifle in an urban jungle with the range being not more that 200 yards. Anything
over that and I would feel a little less comfortable with an assault weapon vs a battle rifle. This all boils down to how much cover you want to downgrade into
concealment vs how much weight you want to pack around.
Butt kicking for goodness!
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Penguin |
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Posts: 2115 (07/18/08 16:59:35) |
I was asking about asault rifle rounds rather than just what ever rounds. That is why I put the choices on the poll that I did. Perhaps I should do one on main
battle rifle rounds. There are a couple of reasons why I was asking about asault rifle rounds. I don't know why but it feels like it is time to go buy
another gun.
I am quite undecided on what to buy right now though. I have sort of been waiting for the supreme court decision and to see how the election would go before deciding on what if anything to buy. Well with the supreme court decision out of the way I think it may be time to buy. The ruling wasn't what I was hoping it was going to be, which didn't surprise me but, it was better than I thought it was going to be. In the end though the decsion doesn't change anything for the moment all it did was say you have a right to own a gun, still leaving up in the air exactly what types. So it opens the door down the road but, changes nothing today. As far as the election goes the primarys are out of the way, we now have our candadits and, they both stink. I think it is time to buy something, the choices are fairly good. The choices probably won't get significatly better soon, being able to buy machine guns at non astronimical prices. On the election front though I wouldn't be surprised to see gun control head our way again. So hence I think the time to buy is as good as it is going to get for the forseeable future and quite posibly better than it will be down the road. There is a fairly good amount of choices out there. I have been thinking about getting one of those M1A1 paratrooper carbines that auto ordance has out now. I am yet to see one but have wanted one for a long time, I guess due to my interest in WW2. Also thinking about getting a SOCOM 16. Every time I handle one of those guns it just seems right. Plus I already have M14 mags. Then there is the asault rifle department, which brings up the orginal question. Arsanal has a nice new AK that from the ones I have seen look sweet. 
 The thing that held me back was they were only in 5.56. If I was to get a rifle in 5.56 it would almost definitly be an AR. Which brings me to the
full size AR at FBMG that I have seen that wispers buy me. Well any ways back to the AK. Well looks like arsanel now has that rifle out in 7.62x39. Which would
be nice because I have lots of AK mags. My gut also sort of tells me it is probably the best compromise in an asault rifle round. For what ever reason though I
think I really want one in 5.45 for what ever reason. Not sure why, perhaps because it is the current caliber for newer AK's.
I was honestly wanting the Masada though but, it looks like that won't be out any time soon. I fear by the time it does come out we won't be able to buy one. The masada would have been almost ideal being able to easly switch between all the calibers with relitive ease. Since getting one is looking rather doubtfull it is back the the age old what do I get. If I was smart I would save my money and get nothing. Honestly the last thing I need is more guns... On the other hand the economey isn't doing so well and the value of the dollar is going down causing prices to go up. I have a bad feeling about this one, which I think is why I feel like buying another gun I don't need.
Penguin
Doobie Doobie Doo... |
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Roughneck |
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Posts: 302 (07/21/08 14:26:10) |
I think they all would work well. Remember we don't have to play by any rules. Use hollow point, and soft point ammo. That will make the 7.62x39 wounds
alot more deadly than a wound from a fmj .308.
That being said I think you would have to do some research on what type of hollow point, or soft point ammo to use. I have heard wolf hollow points don't really expand like a hollow point should. It wouldn't be a bad idea to reload your own ammo, and use bullets meant for hunting. They will do the most damage. All the ammo I have for my homeland security rifles are hollow point. Why worry about all the variables to get an fmj bullet to tumble, when you can just have it massivly expand, and shred internal organs on its way. You have been talking about that arsenal ak for a while. I think you know which weapon you want. And the time I have spent chatting with you i think that would be the one you would be the most happy with. |
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truth10k |
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Posts: 1275 (07/22/08 07:58:39) |
I voted 6.8, but due to price and availability, I do not consider it a viable choice as a result. So, I use 5.56 in an AR platform, though have AKs as well.
Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers,
Lo, there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning, Lo, they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them, In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever. |
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concealcarryman8 |
Just a thought | |||
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Posts: 218 (07/22/08 16:09:01) |
I am not trying to be a prude here. Just a reminder to not fall into the same trap that the media hopes all sheeple will fall into....that of calling
carbines, machine guns, etc or any type of gun that looks somewhat scary "ASSAULT RIFLES." Rifles cannot assault anyone. That is a term conjured up
by Brady Bunch types to demonize useful battle tools. I know I am preaching to the choir here, but if we get into the habit of calling them what they are not,
we allow the other side to win ... just a little. We have to be SOOOO careful the terms we use.
I never use the term (unless I am quoting others), and am in the habit of acting ignorant when others use it. When I hear the term, "Assault Rifle," I always say, "What did you say?" When they repeat it (as if I had not heard them), I act dumb and say, "What is an assault rifle, or whatever you just said?" It can be quite funny to hear someone try to explain to me what an assault rifle is and it leads to some great conversation/education at times. ****************** What part of "...shall not be infringed..." do you not get? |
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OPossum TX |
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Posts: 1598 (07/25/08 12:30:32) |
I claimed the 6.8SPC not because I own a rifle in that caliber but because I believe that with AP ammo it would be the best. It would have sufficient
penetration to puncture light barricades, allow the individual soldier to carry quite a lot of ammunition, have better terminal effect and still be reasonable
when used full auto or in burst fire.
Let us not forget that many, many human wave assaults were carried out with spears, swords and various long, over powered, battle rifles like the Lee Enfield and Mosin Nagant and their derivatives. For most of the last 150 years a rifle assault would have been carried out with what many now call a "Battle Rifle" fitted with a quite long bayonet. I agree that the common AR & AK assault rifles should really be called assault carbines at most. "Tribulation, afflictions, and trials will constantly be with us in our sojourn here in this segment of eternity, just as the Savior said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation." (John 16:33.) Therefore, the great challenge in this earthly life is not to determine how to escape the afflictions and problems, but rather to carefully prepare ourselves to meet them."
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pump |
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Posts: 29 (08/16/08 16:01:12) |
The late Col. Jeff Cooper wrote an article on the perfect assault rifle once. The gist of it was 30 cal, multiple cartridge, fast shooting, 150 gr minimum
bullet weight and 250 yard accuracy of a basketball size target. The rifle was all available in a 30-30 lever generally available under $300 new and $250 for
as new used. Reloading is not anywhere near as fast as a clip but it is quick. Go to 357 or 44 Mag with 10 shots and the range isn't decreased that much.
it also has a low intimidation factor on a truck seat which may be a plus or minus. Something to think about if you don't have the cash for an AR. Pump
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Stubbleduck58.plainsmanscabin |
I'm not a .30-30 nor levergun fan |
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Posts: 148 (08/16/08 18:27:51) |
But I'll agree a 16inch Marlin 30AS or 336 in something potent like a .44Mag or .45Colt+P could indeed have its place. Add a larger-loop
lever, special sights and hollowed-out or lightened stock (all making such a lever-gun lighter and more concealable) adds appeal to me. But I suppose a
careful examination of said piece at a checkpoint might get it confescated by a nosey or greedy JBT or draw some extra attention.
Still, a .44Mag or .45C+P out of a 16in bbl => 200yd performance! Bobbed at 16inches still would give 7rounds before a reload. Plus a possible wheelgun in the same flavor .....
Last Edited By: Stubbleduck58
08/16/08 18:29:56.
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 crabtrap |
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Posts: 495 (08/17/08 20:11:28) |
It took 50,000 lives to win liberty...
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08/17/08 20:13:41.
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crabtrap |
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Posts: 496 (08/17/08 20:32:54) |
Oh i chose 7.62x39 because of its availability and urban warfare capabilities.Anything further then 250yds I'm either walking away from or looking for a
bolt action in a long range rnd and some nice comfy bushes to lay in for a while.
I mark my mags loaded with AP ammo with green tape and the soft tip or hollowpoint bare. sometimes you just gotta poke through stuff so i like to carry a clip or two of th AP in my goody bag. It took 50,000 lives to win liberty...
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constable01 |
re: |
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Posts: 113 (08/18/08 19:15:10) |
Hate to burst the .30 caliber bubble here, BUT........
Tested all three on a mild steel plate 1 1/2 inch thick at 50 yards. 5.56 62Gr. FMJ NON NATO PENETRATOR went into the plate 3/4 inch out of Bushmaster XM-15E2S "Shorty AK" AR-15 with a 14.5 inch barrel and 2.5 inch muzzle break. 7.62X39 123 Gr.FMJ Chinese ,1/4 inch penetration.Out of a MAK 90 with a 16.5 inch barrel .308 Win. Remington UMC 150GR. FMJ, roughly the same as M-80 ball ballistically. 1/2 inch Penetration. Velocity has more to do with it at certain ranges than weight or size of bullet. 7.62 nato would have the edge at longer ranges due to kinetic energy retention. Keep in mind at 100 yards the AK-47 round only has the stopping power of a .38 special pistol cartridge at the muzzle.You have a choice Lead spire point, Hollow point or FMJ and THATS IT!! None of which will have much extra effect beyond 100yards!! The 5.56 Nato has roughly the same energy left as a .357 Magnum round at muzzle at 100 yards(But bullet will still fragment causing catastrophic wounding!)Also you can increse the wounding/killing potential by selecting diffrent bullet designs. The 7.62 Nato does not drop to .357 Magnum energy levels until 500 yards or so. Also you can increase the wounding/killing potential by choosing ballistic tip bullet designs. Remember the design philosophies behind the cartridges, the soviet had no use for long range, their doctrine was human waves rushing in and sweeping the enemy line with full auto fire from the hip at close combat ranges well within the 100yard line.Also the reason accuracy was not of paramount importance in the AK design. When the 5.56 was adopted it was with the philosophy that it should still be able to accuratly engage the enemy at a few hundred yards as well as up close and personal.In fact if you look at the ballistic path of the 5.56 its the same path a .30-06 bullet takes out to long range, granted it won't kill out there at 500 or 600 unless you're lucky but then the U.S. doctrine is to "Wound and Maim" not outright kill your enemy. The 7.62 Nato was adopted with the prevailing wisdom of the first half of the 20th century that brought the .30-06 and that philosophy was................."If they can be seen they need to be shot! Up to and including 800-900 yards away!" It does this well. I own all three, I have two Ak's in 7.62 X39 , Two AR's in 5.56mm and an M1A and M-1 Garand chambered in .308. So do i favor one over the other? Well that depends on the mission i'm using it for. It's like a tool kit full of sockets, your 5/16 socket is not going to work on a 9/16th bolt! For poo hits the oscillator, well i do lean to my AR-15's and M1 family weapons, due to ammo availability and utilizing the magazines of U.S. service weapons. If combat was under 100yards would i feel under armed with AK's, no but then i could not be surprised if the dude i shot gets up and scurries off either because the 7.62X39's wound ballistics "sucketh" to put it biblically! |
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